View Full Version : Heat!!
I think I have a thermostat problem. I will give the symptoms, please let me know what you think. I start the car and even drive it for a while but the C/H temp gauge only moves up from Cold about 1/4 of the way. It stays there no matter how long I drive the car. And when I put the heat on and turn up the fan the air is only lukewarm. I can only put it on floor heat and not vent because it gets cool feeling after a while. I checked my Haynes manual and it says the thermostat might be stuck open-replace it.
The other question.... If I replace it with a 160 degree (assuming it's 180) stat will the car still be the same (lukewarm), or will it warm up like a normal car 180 degr , but just take a little longer since it's 160? Thanks...
With 160stat you'll have even less heat...maybe your heatercore is clogged?
Ok, here's the topic that I wanted to post on for a while now, and kept forgetting.
I used to think that the 160 degree tstat was the reason for my heat problem - pretty much no heat. Then I read somewhere that 160 doesn't really affect heat, and then we had a poll on this forum that showed the same. So at this point I thought that my heater core was clogged. But before I had a chance to flush it, the thing started leaking, so I had to replace it anyway.
It gets mad hot in the car now in about 5 minutes. I used to keep my heat on the lowest fan setting, on the hightest temperature. If I'd turn up the fan speed, it would get really cold. Now I can't keep it at that setting, because it gets too hot even on the lowest setting. So chances are you want to check your heater core out.
Heater core. Even with no T-stat u should have better heat.
Heater Core!!! Is that expensive? And can I repair that myself or is it not worth it...better have the experts do it?
Thanks again for all your replys.
I never replaced one on a Chevy but it should be less than $50 and of full size Fords its an 8 hour job :(
EDIT: Autozone has it listed for $66
http://www3.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?UseCase=C001&UserAction=performSearch&Parameters=Auto+Store%7C%7EREGULAR+PARTS+LOOK+UP%7 C%7EHEATER+CORE
A GM tech told me not to go with a 160 dagree t-start til the summer b/c the car wouldn't get warm no matter what i did. I never did a heater core on a caprice but i replaced one in my 89 ranger that i just sold. i did the job in less than an hour with replacing the hoses. I was told to always replace the hoses when doing a job of that nature because its so cheap and easy and the clog could have moved its way through the hose.
Stupid link is cookie based. Just go to autozone.com and search. I find their instore prices to be a tad higher than the online prices.
The heater core itself is not expensive, but it takes a LOT of time to do it. You pretty much have to take most of the dash appart.
Cost me $200 (parts and labor). Just did it last week.
DR...If I have to change the heater core I'll have to flush out the coolant, right? So would you recommend putting in a 160 tstat at that time ? And you said it doesn't affect the heat, it's still hot, but it just takes a little longer to warm the car up? $200.00 huh, don't know if I can afford that right now. I hope it doesn't start leaking if it is clogged....Seems like everytime I turn around another problem with the car.:cry: I think I need to worry about the steering problem I mentioned in the other thread first. As long as my H/core dosn't leak, maybe I can tollerate the cold.
I am new to the self car repair and modification world. I was wondering whats the difference between the 160 degree stat and the 180 stat, what do you gain or loose installing one of them?
Scott Moore
01-15-03, 20:03
Hi to all. This is my first attempt at posting.
I have a 95 Impala SS and used to have a 96 as well. I had the same no heat situation with the 96 at 15,000 miles. Disconnect the heater hoses and run a stream of water from a garden hose through them. No big deal. Then change the thermostat and add new antifreeze. Should be a real cheap fix.
Clogged heater cores are common in 96 b-bodies because they came with dexcool (orange) antifreeze from the factory. The fix would be to flush the cooling system completely, run a stream of water in both directions through the heater core, and put a conventional antifreeze in the system.
I brought my heater core from radiator express for 20 bucks last year when my L99 needed one. When I wasnt getting any heat from my Monte I stuck a garden hose in the radiator and unscrew the radiater drain screw, I left it in there till the water came out clear. I started the engine with the hose still pooring water in the radiator and turned the heater on high and more brown stuff came out. I did that till the water was clear again. I put half Prestone green stuff and half water and 2 bottles of water wetter. Now the heat is soo hot I dont even turn the heat on. The vents put out hot air, The car never did that before, I ride around without the fan on but inside still gets toasty. Thats going to be anoying when summer comes. By then I'll put straite water and a few bottles of water wetter:)
Originally posted by 9c1Lovr76
whats the difference between the 160 degree stat and the 180 stat, what do you gain or loose installing one of them?
You need to install 160 degree tstat before you do power programming to your car. Cooler temperature allows you to adjust the timing for more HP. I don't think there are any looses though with it.
Thanks I was just looking into sending my PCM to PCM for less, but other things came up and never got around to it. anyway thanks.
So you guys think half antifreeze half water is the way to go? What is water wetter? That orange/red antifreeze is no good? Will my car still stay cool and not over heat with the half and half in the summer? So try the flush thing first and see what happens, right? I don't mean to sound retarded, just want to do this problem once and get it solved. Thanks...
Guys, If I'm going to flush my system, should I install the 160 tstat. If I do, will it cause any problems without reprograming. Or is it okay to do it later?
you can install the 160 tstat before the programming, however you won't see much heat, and you won't really feel the hp gains.
i stick with 100% green antifreeze btw :).
100% green stuff is cool now for the winter but by the end of spring I'd go half water half green stuff. This summer I'm going 100% water and a few bottles of water wetter. Its weird how it works but more water means cooler engine:confused: I've read that on other forums and my buddy from L.I.S.S.T has this setup in his Impala. You can find water wetter at any auto store. I get mines at pep boys.
GreatWhiteOn20z
01-19-03, 01:07
Feliks just had his heatercore flushed out. Alota shiit came out of it.The heat in his car got alitlle better. He gets warm air when idling, but then on the hiway the temp drops and it becoimes cool. I got almost same heat issie after I installed the ED Wright chip with 160 deg tstat which combined lowers the engine op temp. Go figure:freak:
capriceman
01-19-03, 02:44
Take it one step at a time Dude. Your getting good advice, but for different things.
First, let's find out what is NOT wrong. Engine temp being up, but little heat inside is a symptom of low coolent. Rule that out. If the level is fine,O.K., we know one thing it isn't.
Do the vents seem to have enough air flow? It sounds like it. If there were something on the face of the heater core blocking the temp, it would block the air. You would also feel the heat sort of leaking out.
If it were the thermostat, the engine would get hotter than it does when it sits still wile running for awile. Try letting it sit still at idle or a little better for 20-45 min. Look underneath the car for leaks in about 15min. The thermostat should be open by then.
If the temp goes way up, it probibly is the thermostat. I had my 94 sitting at idle last nite for about 45min. and the temp gauge only went half way up.
I like the garden hose idea for checking if the core is blocked. Remove both heater hoses, those are the the ones going into the fire wall. (I'm sure You knew that). Keep them raised so fluid doesn't leak. Slip the garden hose on one of them, turn it on and see what happens. You may want to have someone in the car when You do this in case there is a leak. You most likely would have seen coolent on the carpet though.
If water comes out the other core connection slowley, it's partially blocked. Keep flushing. Like the man said, alternate connection points if the flow doesn't improve. The water should flow freely. You'll probibly get more volume from the garden hose than the core usally gets so if output doesn't equall input, don't worry.
Keep flushing untill the water runs out clear. If no water comes out, then it is clogged. Try pressure from the hose in both directions. This might break the clog loose. You could cap the bottom connection and using a funnel pour some radiator cleaner in to the core, let it sit for a bit and try again. I honestly don't know if drain cleaner would damage the core or not.
If it is clogged, and You can't clear it, get a haynes mannuell for the B- Bodys, a decent tool set, a sunday, a clean heater core fron the junk yard and take Your time. If Youre smart enough to buy a Caprice, You are certinally smart enough to do this. These cars are very easy to work on. Especially for a modern computerized vehicle.
As far as different thermostats, if You use a lower temp. one, the computer will think your engin is running hotter when the T-stat opens. It will do it's thing to keep the engine cool, allowing it to run even cooler. (I learned that on this site). No need to reprogram.
Different coolents? Good question. I had the green when I got the car. Did a little research and went with dex-cool.(orange). Dex- cool has a more effieciant heat transfer than the standard green. I live in the south now, so this is a pretty much year round bennifett for me. If You switch coolent types though, be sure to flush the green out as completly as You can.
As I understand it, there is a reaction between the two chemicles wich basicly cancell out each others greater than water heat transfer. It won't freeze, but plain water would cool just as well. These engines are designed to lose a little more heat than that. They'll run though.
I've worked on a lot of engine cooling systems over the years, and I feel that chancing the thermostat when ever You work on the system isn't strictly neccesary. If the T-stat remains outside the engine long enough to dramaticly change temp. twice, If it opens then closes twice, or gets petrolium or other caustic chemicles on it, or it's old, change it.
It doesn't hurt anyway for 2-6 bucks.
Changeing hoses? If they are cracked, split, dry rotted, the ends get torn or split, they have high miles on them, 40,000, or if they just generally look like crap, replace them.
You said that You were new to working on Your own car? In a way, I envy that. I'm no A.S.E. Certified mechanic or even close. But the cars that I learned on for the most part were rice boxes. I wish I had a B-body to learn on. I would have known from the begining how a car was supposed to be built.
I'm glad to hear that You want to address the steering problem first. Better cold than dead.
What I think is the most important thing, GET A BOOK. I use Haynes. They are based on a complete tare down and re- build of the vehicle. Dealer repair manualls are supposed to be even better. I believe that but I've never used one.
This is a problem that You can solve Yourself if You are at all handy with tools. You don"t have to be Mr. mechanic. If You take Your time You'll get it fixed. If You do it Yourself, You'll be even more proud of the ride than You are already.
P.S. If the way I wrote this seems at all condecending, I'm sorry. A side effect from teaching.
Good Luck.
capriceman
01-19-03, 04:27
Originally posted by LM13
you can install the 160 tstat before the programming, however you won't see much heat, and you won't really feel the hp gains.
i stick with 100% green antifreeze btw :).
Anti-freeze/coolent is designed to give maximum heat transfer in solution of 50% water. The only benifit of pure coolent over pure water, is that pure coolent won't freeze.
Pure water will transfer more heat from the engine than pure coolent. 50/50 mix will transfer more heat than either pure water or pure coolent. Anti freeze/coolent, mainly because of its thicker viscosity, will retain a greater amount of heat, however, the higher viscosity, wich results from tighter molecular structure, will also prevent it from absorbing as much heat as water. The water acts as a medium of transfer fom the hot engine heads and block to the coolent.
Each one seperately will cool the engine sufficiently under most circumstances.
In the extreem cold, pure coolent will become to viscus to properly flow, allowing uneven heating of the heads, block and other componets, wich can allow for greater and more rapid metal fatigue.
Pure water in the extreem cold.........
In the extreem heat, pure coolent cannot absorb heat quickly enough to properly cool the engine. Not enough of the heat it does absorb will be radiated in the relitively short time that the fluid passes through the radiator.
Pure water in extreem heat will absorb heat to quickly, becoming steam in the sealed system. The water pump is designed to pump a fluid, not a gas. Not enough of the steam will stay in the cooler radiator long enough to condence back into fluid. Since the the system is under pressure, not all of the water will become gaseous. The pressure will not allow the water to expand in to a gas. As soon as that pressure, or a suffiecient amount, is released the water that is hot enough, about 85% from 11 quarts with 25 psi. @ 200 deg., will begin to flash to steam. As this happens, heat from the portion that in not flashing will be transfered to the steam. Much of it to the point where it will not flash, but simply boil, becoming steam more slowley.
The average engine cooling system for a V8 rated at 16 psi. will successfilly contain pressure up to approximatly 25 psi., if every thing is in perfect working order.
If there is one weekness, one small pin hole, one tiny little crack in the plumbing, one slightly loose clamp, the inside of the engine compartment will get a steam cleaning, and the owner of the vehicle will likley get a heafty tow and repair bill.
When I worked in garages many moons agoe, remember, I'm an old fart, I was usally the cooling system guy.(Besides tune-ups and oil changes), I saw alot of needless damage to nice engines because the cooling system was not properly maintained. The engineers gave us systems that will allow the engine to operate within acceptable temprature parameters under almost any conditions, if we use them as designed.
I have a 50/50 mix in my car, and on the hottest day last summer, 103 deg., I drove from Charleston to Columbia and back. 110 miles each way. The temp gauge never even got past 1/4 of the way up the gauge. I was travelling about 65 average with the A/C on max., fan on full.
There is nothing wrong with using a lower, or even higher temp. thermostat within reason. If you go from a 190 deg. to a 50 deg. T-stat, for example, the engine will never reach its optimum operating temp.
If you go from a 190 to a 250 deg., it'll run great. For about 20 min.
You all have very nice cars. Please take care of the cooling systems. They are so important.
Sorry to rattle on. Sleep depravation will do that.
Wow thats great information:) Thanks, nice to have someone like you around to school us 'know it alls' I'll be going 50x50 mix all year round.
capriceman
01-19-03, 13:08
Thanks. I hope it helps. I really didn't mean to go on and on. When I got my Caprice, my Dad said something about the wrong coolent being used when He had it serviced. I looked into it and that's when I learned about the chemical reaction.
I hadn't heard about the cores clogging up because of the dex-cool before, but I haven't worked in a shop in years.
reverendstu
01-19-03, 18:30
The Dex-cool isn't bad stuff, it's the sealant tablets/stuff that were put in with it that clogs every thing. At least that's what I've gleaned off the weird wide web. Any opinions?
capriceman
01-19-03, 20:29
You're probibly right about the sealant causing the problem. I've never used that stuff in any of my vehicles and I've only ever had one clog in over 20 years. That was in a car that sat for over a year.
I don't care what the manufactorer says. Pouring chumks of fiberglass or,worse yet, copper filings into the system can't be good. What are those bits not sealing the leak doing? Getting moved around acting like sand paper. Take care of the system as reccomended and it should almost never clog.
If You put about 1 Table spoon of vegetable oil in your coolent, it will lubricate and condition the thermostat and actuallt help prevent clogs. It will coat the surfaces of the system and prevent things that do get in there fron sticking. It also does a little bit to keep the hoses and other rubber parts it comes in contact with soft, preventing cracking. And it's tasty.:)
capriceman
01-19-03, 20:39
Oh ya,
About Dex-cool, that's what I've got in my car and it runs very cool, even on 100deg. + days. Good stuff. It stays crunchy in milk as well.:D
CapriceMan, Thanks for all the awesome information. As you can tell, it's helping alot of others besides me as well! Thanks.
capriceman
01-22-03, 00:48
That is very kind of You.
Believe me John, I am very glad that any small bit of information I've retained over the past 20 years or so can help in any small way.
Thank You,
Cap...Man :)
capriceman
01-23-03, 02:25
Okay,
I did a search for Water Wetter and got thier "technicale information", wich amounts to an advertisement.
Some of thier statements are true, but miss leading.
They say that "plain water will remove 50% more heat than 50-50 mix..."
I'm not sure about 50%, but it will remove more heat.
What they fail to mention is that water alone cannot retain heat for as long as 1/2 mix. So the heat that it picks up in say the water jacket next to piston #3, wich is greater than that in mid block, may be partially deposited in mid block.
Just as water tends to seek its own level, it seeks to equalize its temprature with its nearest outside environment. In this case, mid block.
It will cool the engine as a whole. It will also tend to even out tempratures throughout the entire engine. When it reaches the much cooler radiater it will try to equalize that temprature,(wich is much lower than the head temp), thus losing a great deal of heat, wich in turn allows more heat from the engine to be carried around by the water.
Will this keep Your engine cool? Yes. Is it good for Your engine? NO! All of the newer cooling systens have alot of aluminium components. Aluminum won't "rust", but it does oxidize. It's just not red. Ever see that whitish powdery stuff on a thick piece of old aluminum? That's oxidation.
Unless You are using pure bottled water, it has some acidic qualities. It will oxidize the aluminum parts. One of the things that antifreeze/coolent does, is coat and protect those parts. However, the glychol, a close cousin to alchahol, will turn even more acidic. That is why it needs to be changed about every 15,000 miles or once a year.
It is a true statement that "more water means a cooler engine", if you look at the temprature gauge. The heads and manifold will indeed be cooler than with a 50-50 mix. The temprature in the bottom half of the engine will be higher.
You can increase the percentage of water to coolent and receive lower over all temps.
With Green, at about 70% water, You are starting to transfer heat to the bottom half.
I haven't researched this with dex-cool, but it is probibly a little higher.
What Water Wetter did not tell me, What is it? What is the chemicle name? What EXACTLY does it do? Coat the cooling system? I told You the other day that a little plain old veggie oil will do that.
Will this stuff signiffagantly harm Your cooling system? I doubt it.
Do they gaurantee that? Does it do what it says?
You folks that have used it before would be a better judge of that than I would.
Untill they are willing to release some real technicale info on it, I plan to stick to antifreeze/water mix. I'm not saying that You shouldn't use it, or that it's not a good product. They just won't tell me.:confused:
I'm one of those guys that are very supicious of these additives, a quick fix in a can that,"will instantly add and restore lost power to your engine" or "will add years to the life of your car".
This stuff may do exactly as advertised, I can't say.
I do know, there is no quick fix in a bottle.
There are chemicles that improve the engines performance without harming anything. But they won't tell me How this does that.
Okay, I'm finished rattling on. Let's look at pictures of naked chicks leaning provokitively on cars now.:)
capriceman
01-26-03, 13:42
I don't know why I didn't tell You Guys this before. Brain CrAmP.
If Your car is taking a long time to warm up, take a piece of good ol' fashoned card board, a square about 18" x 18", tape it to the center of Your radiator.
You don't even need to tape it on to well. When You start moving along the air it's blocking will hold it on.
It will get warmer in less time. Watch the temp. gauge, and if it gets to hot, just take off.
Get rid of it when the days start getting up to 55deg. or so.
I haven't done that in about 5 years, since I moved to the south, but up north I allmost always had a piece on in the colder winters. It works pretty well.
capriceman
09-11-03, 23:58
Boo.
Hope this helps.
Cobra152004
06-06-07, 03:25
This topic has lots of awesome info in it.
I've got the 1991 L05 flushed and full of distilled water right now. It runs on the highway and idles from cold at about 160F, but heated up enough to spook me last week in a residential neighborhood.
I had the heavy duty sodium citrate Prestone descaler and normal hard garden hose well water in it at the time. I think it got around 220F when I turned on the heater and stopped at some nearby store and looked around for a while to cool it off. I think the mechanical fan clutch may be weak. The fan blades also have a strange curve to them. It doesn't have electric fans. Is there anything else I should check?
I think there is a cooler than stock thermostat in it (maybe a 180). Are there any special steps needed if I switch to a 160?
I have used the flush twice. It went from clear to green both times. I only put in distilled water today. I think it's ready for antifreeze. I have two gallons of undiluted Supertech 5yr/150,000 mile antifreeze that should be just like Prestone's Dexcool.
How much do I need to add to get a 50% concentration? I don't know the exact volume of my coolant system, which has the heavy duty code.
I put a new heater core and control valve in a couple of weeks ago. I still have scars from ripping the dripping seized quick release hose off of the old one. The new hoses are Goodyear heater hoses with homemade copper plumbing connections soldered where bends were. Normal screw hose clamps next to the firewall are a pain. Will the copper hold up?
Sorry this is so long. Thanks for any info.
capriceman
06-06-07, 16:49
The copper should hold up fine, as long as the soldering is good.
You should test the fan to see if it operates when it should.
You can use a regular household cooking thermometer.
Open your reservoir, and put the thermometer in there, so the gauge end is sticking out obviously.
Then run the engine.
When the temp gets up to 180*, the fan should engage.
I'm not absolutely sure about the temp., but you should be able to find that in the owners manual if you have one.
Cobra152004
06-06-07, 17:06
I don't have the Chevy owner's manual. I have a Haynes repair manual that says a 185F thermostat is recommended.
The fan always spins some whenever the engine is turning. The clutch is supposed to not slip as much at high underhood temperatures. I can't really tell if the resistance has increased after driving it. I don't think it moves as much air as it did in the past. I may look around and see if I have a warranty for it.
I'm glad to hear that the copper should hold up. The heater hoses I saw online didn't look the same, and were kind of expensive. I tore up a quick release connection replacing the heater core. I just hope my hands don't get to big to get the hose clamps off if necessary in the future.
capriceman
06-06-07, 17:20
Sorry, I don't really know else to test the clutch.
If it sounds like something is causing friction, then I'd guess the bearings are starting to go.
Is there a place where you can add oil to it?
That may help.
http://autotechrepair.suite101.com/article.cfm/fan_clutch_testing
Cobra152004
06-07-07, 02:08
It seems to have too little friction if anything. I don't think it has a place for oil. I dug around and found a receipt for Item: 269548 215145 Thermal Fan C from Autozone with LLT. I think it's the fan clutch. I could probably get my dad to exchange it. (He bought it back in August of 2001.) I may get the timing light and deep fry thermometer after it and see what happens. That link is interesting.
Does it matter what brand of thermostat I get if I swap to a 160F? Thanks for all the help.
I got my Caprice in May. It was warm in Tn. I had the radiator back flushed. I did not notice anything until winter. My heater would only get warm and the temp reading would only go up a little. I tried cardboard and nothing helped. I changed the thermostat and it solved the problem.
If you get a new thermostat be sure to go with one that fails in the open position. This keeps the system circulating even though the thermostat is not working.
When I had poor heat in my Acura.The temperature regulator door was not sealing well in HOT, letting cold air bypass the heater core. I stuffed a 4-5mm by 12 cm piece of foam into the faulty Acura A4 parts (http://www.alloemcarparts.com/specials/audi-a4-parts.html) , closed the door on it, and unhooked the cable until Spring to keep it in place. But still, it is not functioning well... When I brought it to my mechanic I've learned that he temperature gauge will swing back and forth until the entire system is warmed fully. This is because I keep introducing "cold" coolant from the radiator into the engine, rapidly cooling it. When the temp falls enough, the thermostat closes, and the temp goes back up, repeating the cycle. This is due to a valve which lets you get heat before the thermostat opens up. It keeps the warm coolant in the engine *and heater* when the thermostat was closed.
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